FEATURED Warning about SSD caching (SRT) on new Z68

[TimoneX]

TY guys for the most interesting(though somewhat convoluted) thread I've read here for some time.

This is the first feature that I've found to be a compelling reason to swap out a s1366 setup for SB. If this interesting feature is left off Ivy or SB-E...well lets just say George will be getting angry...

Cheers.

 

[ratbuddy]

I just used the trial version of Acronis Easy Migrate to swap my boot drive from the M4 to the Vertex 2. I was running out of space on the M4 since my saved games live in Documents which I wanted to keep on pure SSD. Now there's another 20-something GB free on the boot drive, and the cache drive has even faster reads. Here's a Crystal of the F3 with the M4 acting as cache. Since the last time I posted the result was a few pages back, for comparison, I've included a screen of the same system with the same setup except with the Vertex 2 as cache drive and M4 holding the OS.

Very nice, IMHO. Anyone have a plain mechanical drive they want to run a QD32 4k random test on and post up the result?

 

[GreenJelly]

I have my boot drive on the C drive. I installed windows awhile ago and figured that we have not heard a conclussion on the issue of creating a partition after installation that would then be able to use the Rapid Storage Technology.

I have Windows 7 64, Asus P8Z68-V PRO and an Intel 510 120GB SSD!

I installed Windows 7 around a month ago and figured I would try to setup a Rapid Storage Technology partition for my WD 1GB (well 932GB) Black Drive. I shrunk my partition using 3rd party software, creating 20GB unallocated of space. I then changed My Bios From ACHI to RAID (and tinkered a bit to get it working).

First when switching from AHCI to RAID, Intel Rapid Storage Technology reported the drive as 3Gbps. I have the latest Asus Bios (version 610) and the latest Intel 510 SSD Firmware PPG4. I have a SATA 6Gbps Cable. When changing back to AHCI the drive reports 6Gbps! I did not bench mark since I do not have a copy of PCMark.

When I enter Intel Rapid Storage Technology it fails to provide an Accelerate button as shown in the previous post. I have tried just about everything else! It is interesting that Ratbuddys drive shows 2 RAID partitions.

I can only conclude that you must either create the RAID array before you install (which the BIOS will not allow you to do), or jump off a bridge! I do not know why the SSD will report 3 Gb/s when the Bios is set to RAID, but I am discouraged enough not to try anything else right now

 

[ratbuddy]

You're trying to cache a spinner with unallocated space on your boot drive? That won't work. With a single-SSD system, you'd need to install windows to the spinner, cache it with the SSD, and use the leftover SSD space for something else.

 

[Psycogeec]

clear this up for me

1)

|-----SSD--all cache-------|
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ linked
|------------HDD---------------------------------------------------------------|

Any data that is used and reused , from the hard drive no mater how large the hard drive is, can be sent to the SDD and read from it instead of the drive.
writes can go to the SSD but are also stored on the HD, because the SDD is not storage but only as cache to speed up the storage.


2)

----SSD GONE ------------
link disconnected
|--------------HDD-------------------------------------------------------------|

All data is still on the HDD, the cache is no longer in play.



3)

|-----SSD--all cache-------|
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^cache linked to DISK not partition?
|-----HDD-OS----partition0----------|----------HDD----DATA---Partition1---------------|

same as above , OS and data are both cached? as the cache is not set on the partition but it is set on the whole "volume"
Cache usage is based not on the OS , but high use of specific file items?


4)

|-SSD Cache part--|-SSD Data -------|
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
|--------------HDD--------OS-----------------------------------------------------|

Parts of the whole of the SSD can be used as the cache, the leftovers can be partitioned for data storage. The minimum size of the cache is ~20gig or the 18.? that exists on a 20gig.


5)

|-SSD Cache part--|-SSD Data -------|
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
|-----HDD-------with NO Operating system----------------------------------------------|

Any HDD can be set up to be SSD Cached, it does not require that an OS exist on the drive that is being cached.


6)

|--------SSD---------|
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
|--------HDD---------|

There is NO requirement whatsoever that the disks be the same size , the cache system is caching file items, not the whole disk itself.
.

 

[EarthDog]

I have my boot drive on the C drive. I installed windows awhile ago and figured that we have not heard a conclussion on the issue of creating a partition after installation that would then be able to use the Rapid Storage Technology.

I have Windows 7 64, Asus P8Z68-V PRO and an Intel 510 120GB SSD!

I installed Windows 7 around a month ago and figured I would try to setup a Rapid Storage Technology partition for my WD 1GB (well 932GB) Black Drive. I shrunk my partition using 3rd party software, creating 20GB unallocated of space. I then changed My Bios From ACHI to RAID (and tinkered a bit to get it working).

First when switching from AHCI to RAID, Intel Rapid Storage Technology reported the drive as 3Gbps. I have the latest Asus Bios (version 610) and the latest Intel 510 SSD Firmware PPG4. I have a SATA 6Gbps Cable. When changing back to AHCI the drive reports 6Gbps! I did not bench mark since I do not have a copy of PCMark.

When I enter Intel Rapid Storage Technology it fails to provide an Accelerate button as shown in the previous post. I have tried just about everything else! It is interesting that Ratbuddys drive shows 2 RAID partitions.

I can only conclude that you must either create the RAID array before you install (which the BIOS will not allow you to do), or jump off a bridge! I do not know why the SSD will report 3 Gb/s when the Bios is set to RAID, but I am discouraged enough not to try anything else right now

You're trying to cache a spinner with unallocated space on your boot drive? That won't work. With a single-SSD system, you'd need to install windows to the spinner, cache it with the SSD, and use the leftover SSD space for something else.

As GJ wrote it, it seems like he cut a 20GB chunk out of the HDD and not the SSD?

@ RB - That is what people have been wanting to be tested in this thread forever. Can you have OS on SSD, allocate 20GB+ on that same SSD to cache a HDD.

@ Pyscho - SSD dude... SSD.

As to you drawings... we have been discussing this throughout the thread, give it a read to see where we are at.

SUmmary:

Drawing 1. Frequently used data is sent to the SSD, yes.
Drawing 2. True.
Drawing 3. I believe its the partition with the OS on it. As you should see from reading the thread that is one of our main questions that nobody can seem to (want to) test.
Drawing 4. True.
Drawing 5. See #3 answer.

 

[Psycogeec]

I feex, I have attempted to read the whole thread.
i was getting to the complicated parts


someone suggested this? and has not been tested?

7)

|---SSD OS part--|--SSD---cache-part------|
. . . . . . . . . . . . . ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
|-----HDD-Data--------------------------------------------------------------|

OS is all running off the SSD, the SSD cache is being applied to other data instead of "OS".



8)

Rat Buddy has this setup working (simplified)

|---SSD OS----------|


|--SSD---cache-------|
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
|-----HDD------------------------------------------------------------------------|

2 Solid state drives, OS running fully off of a SSD.
a seperate SSD is being used to do cache for a hard drive.



9)

|-----SSD--all cache-------|
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
|-----SSD --OS-------------|

This is just stupid, but i dont think anyone thought it wouldnt be. . The software does not allow for this, or allow for a HD to be the cache.
.

 

[EarthDog]

Id continue reading the thread we have went over this..

Drawing 7: is what we are trying to figure out as well.
Drawing 8: I dont think so... I dont recall.
Drawing 9: No. You cannot cache an SSD with an SSD.

Read all about the technology here: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4329/intel-z68-chipset-smart-response-technology-ssd-caching-review/2

 

[Psycogeec]

. . . and The Number One reason why i was reading this thread instead of watching david letterman

10)

Simplified, i want this

|---SSD Raid0 Array OS-----|-array--Cache space--|
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .^^^^^^^^^
|---HDD Raid0 array data---------------------------------------------------------------------------|


The fully complicated version would actually be like these 2

11)
One SSD One raid0 Hd team

|---SSD OS part--|--SSD---cache-part------|
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ^^^^^^^^^
|-----HDD0----Raid 0----data-----|-----part1--data----|--------data----Part2--------------------------|
|-----HDD1----Raid 0----data-----|-----part1--data----|---------data---Part2--------------------------|


12)
SSD array, caching a HDD array

|---SSD0 OS RAID0--|--SSD---cache-part------|
|---SSD1 OS RAID0--|--SSD---cache-part------|
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ^^^^^^^^^
|-----HDD0----Raid 0----data-----|-----part1--data----|--------data----Part2--------------------------|
|-----HDD1----Raid 0----data-----|-----part1--data----|---------data---Part2--------------------------|

i think intel could pull it off, but the thread made it all so confusing.

.

 

[EarthDog]

Again that is what we are trying to figure out I believe... Can you cache a HDD without an OS on it. You have multiple partitions on that HDD so that throws another variable into it though. If it works, I doubt you can cache multiple partitions, but I am just guessing at that thinking of how these are setup in the first place.

 

[Psycogeec]

i wonder if some of the confusion, came about due to what they were trying to say to Users.
the drive sanctioned for use with the system, is a little enterprise class 20G SLC intel drive.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167062
The Intel SSD 311 Series, holding frequently used files, <-- does not say OS programs
The direction of INTELS own information is to use this smaller drive , with a larger HD.

we all know that you can use any drive, but then we quote the manufacture who is on one specific plane of thought. ? ? ?
with that drive, and most peoples systems, you would expect those answers.
they also know that most people dont bother to partition, or even organise anything.

the cache can be 64G max size, for me that could cache my entire system partition 5 times over

http://download.intel.com/support/m...ntel_smart_response_technology_user_guide.pdf
2. Select the HDD (or RAID volume) to be accelerated. It is highly recommended to accelerate the
system volume or system disk for maximum performance.
It does not make any OS caching requirement statement, and continually speaks of volume, then tosses out the word disk.

Volume according to the wiki,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume_(computing
for formatted NTFS systems in windows , would be only the partition :-( but could also be the whole disk, depending on the use of the word volume.

we know what a disk is

In RatBuddys pictures the acceleration is shown applied to the "port" and "device".

One motherboard lists the action not as File based but "block" based cache.
.

 

[GreenJelly]

Yes, I was attempting to try the one thing people where asking (and remained unsolved). Which is if they had a current SSD with the OS installed on it, could they use a smaller partition of that SSD (not the OS partition) to use as a Cache for a larger drive. It appears not.

However, there is one solution left to try, and it is kinda a hack. Install the OS on a smart response technology partition. Then install another copy of the OS on the SSD partition. If you can use the Smart Response Partition when running the second Windows OS, then you could delete the first windows install and get it to work.

BUT, its not something I am willing to try as the drive is reduced from a SATA 6 to a SATA 3 drive

I also do not have a SECOND SSD to try, but a second separate drive should work without an issue... SHOULD!

 

[Eldonko]

This is really all you need to know from this thread. I would ignore the rest, it will just lead to confusion.

If you have a small SSD that you dedicate to caching ONLY, then it's true that you can't put your OS on that SSD because it's being used for the cache.

If you have an SSD with a single partition dedicated to caching, it IS possible to use another partition on the same SSD for data storage or whatever, but it's probably NOT possible to put your OS on that same SSD.

If you have an SSD dedicated to caching, it IS possible to put your OS on a second SSD that's not being used for a cache.

 

[ratbuddy]

There's also a method floating around for running OS and cache on the same drive, but I wouldn't mess with it.

 

[Mordachai]

First: thanks for this thread. Cool discussion, including the confusion.

Now I'm torn. I have a 256GB C300 SSD and a 2TB 5400 RPM drive. Do I stick with my current config - OS & Program Files & Games on my SSD, or try to switch it to use the IRST approach, and then find something meaningful to put on the non-cache partition of the SSD (I'd end up with 212GB data partition).

 

[hokiealumnus]

I'd stick with your current config personally. With that size SSD, this type of caching would likely do nothing but slow you down.

 

[EarthDog]

There's also a method floating around for running OS and cache on the same drive, but I wouldn't mess with it.

Links.. thats interesting!!!

First: thanks for this thread. Cool discussion, including the confusion.

Now I'm torn. I have a 256GB C300 SSD and a 2TB 5400 RPM drive. Do I stick with my current config - OS & Program Files & Games on my SSD, or try to switch it to use the IRST approach, and then find something meaningful to put on the non-cache partition of the SSD (I'd end up with 212GB data partition).

Agree with below.

I'd stick with your current config personally. With that size SSD, this type of caching would likely do nothing but slow you down.

 

[Mordachai]

I wonder how all of this compares to the new hybrid drives that Seagate and others? are making - where they have a few GB of SSD that the HDD controller uses for purely block-caching (no OS level driver support at all)?

 

[EarthDog]

Same difference if not better (RST over Hybrid)...look at some hybrid drive benchmarks then look at RST benches to compare.

 

[ratbuddy]

Links.. thats interesting!!!

Interesting but a pain in the ***. You also end up with OS and cache sharing the same SATA port, rather than each getting full bandwidth as you would get with a dual SSD setup.

Anyway, http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2172381 has the details.